Interview with Ku, Yenlin

 Chong Su

Date and Time: Jan. 19 2015, 1:30 pm

Place: Conference Room in Taipei YWCA, Taipei (青島西路 No. 7100 台北市 中正區 青島西路 No. 7)

Participant: Ku, Yen-lin (Chairperson of Taiwan Senior Citizen Leaders' Association and former Chairperson of Awakening Foundation)

Q: Could please introduce yourself and the motivation or background of why you participated in women’s movements?

Ku: I think it is easy to answer question than to talk about myself. I graduated from the university in the '70s and belonged to the to the baby boomers generation. I went to college at that time when Taiwan was fast developing, it was growing from an agricultural to export-oriented, industrial society. I went to the US for graduate studies at Clarmont Graduate School in California. It was a time when the second wave of women's movement was burgeoning. I was attracted by the talks about feminism and had the opportunity to read the publications of the second wave of feminism. The first book that got me interested in feminism is Sisterhood is Powerful. And later I discovered that many women of my age were also affected by this book.

Q: This is written by....

Ku: The last name is Morgan. After returning to Taiwan I got involved in the first wave of feminist movement in Taiwan and began to write articles and to do research. At that time Women's Study was not yet an autonomous field of study. I was motivated to do research on women because of the movement. We came up with too many questions for which we couldn't find answers in existing fields of studies or Western publications. I found we had to find answers for ourselves and began to to start research work of my own. I always considered myself to be the first generation of feminist scholars in Taiwan. And also I think I was the first generation of Women's Study's scholars in the world because while I went to graduate school in the US there was no such areas as women's studies, no such programs. Many classes offered on campuses were a organized by students themselves. I think I was very lucky to be involved in the very beginning and to witness the development of the movement from the earliest stage in Taiwan, in the 70s. In the 80s we started the Awakening (婦女新知基金会)and the English name was given by me. In Chinese, the Chinese name means Women's New Knowledge (婦女新知).

Q: Awakening in Buddhist sense implies nirvana.

Ku: So I started in the doing of women's movement and also women's studies at the same time in the late 70s and early 80s.

Q: I have heard that there is some between the feminist activists and

Ku: Right. It took 10 years for us to reach agreement that we should do women's study from the feminist perspective. In the early days when we tried to establish women's studies as an academic field, there were debates on what women's study should be like and whether we should take feminist perspective or not. Well many women scholars were very hesitant to assume the feminist position and they think feminism could bring stigma to the scholarly field. Fortunately we were under the influence of the world women's movements. The visits of Scholars and activists from abroad brought legitimacy to the movement in Taiwan. Interesting to note your talk about the women's movement in Korea starting as a women's workers movement, but in Taiwan we started with women like me, well-educated and having had graduate studies abroad. More or less influenced by the Western feminism. So the movement has been criticized for being middle-class for a long time.

After teaching in university and being an activist in the movement for 24 years, I was recruited into Taipei city government in 1998 and became the first femocrat in Taiwan. I was first in many things. I was the first to teach so called women's studies courses. There were women professors before me teaching about women like in the history department. There were sporadic courses. Like women's life in a certain dynasty, you know, historical studies of women's life. There were studies on women and families and so on. But they weren't done from a feminist perspective. So I was the first one to teach a feminist course and publish the first paper from a feminist perspective and the first femocrat in government.

Q: Now you championed all three titles of the velvet triangle: femocrat; feminist scholar; and also activist.

Ku: That's right. I think I am very lucky

Q: What were your lessons from this, how can I say, trinity? You can now comprehend, not from a narrow perspective as a scholar or as a femocrat. Now you are in the position to integrate all these. What were your lessons, what were your experiences as (a person) experienced three fields.

Ku: I really appreciate the experiences of working in the government, especially as the director of the Department of Social Services. I had to look at policies from a different position. When I headed the Awakening Foundation for two years before joining the government, I had to make very clear on our goals and strategies. I had to take a firm stand on the things I believed in. After  moving to the government, I had to take a more comprehensive view. I couldn't avoid thinking from a feminist standpoint because it had been part of me for a long time. Also I had to look at policy from the position of the implementer and to weigh and evaluate the consequences and the prices paid for every policy. I really enjoyed looking at things more comprehensively.

Q: You can integrate your expertise as a scholar and your field experiences.

Ku: Right now I am serving on many government committees in Taipei City Government, in the central government and also in Xinju City government.

Q: How about the relationship between the feminist movement and other popular women's movements. There are some social movements of which constituents are primarily composed of women but not specifically devoted to the feminist goals.

Ku: It's interesting. What do you mean by popular women's movements?

Q: For instance, I know the Taiwanese women's movement began independently different from the social movements. But in South Korean cases, women's movements were a part of kind of high democratic movement. There is so called minjung or Chinese minzhong (民众)movement, people and mass. That is kind of collective identity, very radical. We need at first anti-state, anti-government, and anti-capital and after that we can focus on women's issues, gender issues, sexuality issues. Women's movement at first a part of this kind of master movement or global movement. So therefore they have relative a close relationship with other women's popular movements, for instance the growth of women's popular movements composed primarily of women but not specifically devoted to women's cause and axiom, for instance environment or peace.

Ku: So you mean environmental movement and peace movement are composed mainly of women? I don't think that is the case in Taiwan. Okay and we are sitting in the office of Taipei YWCA. YWCA is the world women's and youth movement. This organization YWCA is more like what you are talking about. Taipei Y was established in 1949, right after the Second World War, long before the movement organization like Awakening which I belonged to. YWCA is more like a social service organization in Taiwan

Q: In Korea YWCA is a huge organisation. It has almost 100 years of history. Last year was the 100 year of the Korean YMCA. YMCA in Korea is more radical. They are deeply involved in social movements.

Ku: Compared with movement groups, women's organisations like Y function more in social services providing services to disadvantaged people. In the 80s at the height of the social movements in Taiwan, there were very short periods when groups like the Awakening tried to work together with YWCA and others on social issues. There were very few other women's groups at that time. But then I think that they developed separately.

Q: Let me shift focus not on social movement organisation. I read an article written by you in 1988, "The changing status of women in Taiwan-A conscious and collective struggle toward equality" You said there: women's movements in Taiwan in the 1970s, they were closely related to the democratic movement.

Ku: In the 80, ya?

Q: Let me quote: “The Women’s Movement in Taiwan started in the 197Os, closely correlated in time with the Democratic Movement.”

Ku: Ya, you can say that because they were both oppositional to the establishment in nature. And it’s easier for them to form ties.

Q: But Annette Lu told that the women's movement connection with the democratic movement relative weak.

Ku: In the 70s?

Q: She did not state the period but she mentioned the women's movement connection with the democratic movement relative weak.

Ku: Interesting because she became the Vice President. She was very closely related to the democratic movement.

Q: How was the development of women's movement in Taiwan and political parties.

Ku: We were under one-party rule at the time. The KMT was the dominant political party and represented patriarchy to the feminists who tried to change the establishment in every respect. In that case, the political opposition party found us an ally. That is natural development. In the 70s and 80s, we found it easier to make friends with the political oppositionists than rulers. After the DPP was established, they had a social movement department to incorporate movement groups.  I think all the opposing forces in society had a need to forge ties with each other. The martial law was abolished in 1987. We had a lot of street activities before and after '87. Different movement groups formed joint forces in marches and demonstrations. For some time, many of my friends and colleagues were on street, almost every day for different causes, women today, workers tomorrow, and environment the next day. Cooperation was quite close, especially in the late 80s.

Q: How close was that relationship? Because there is a significant difference between South Korea and Taiwan….(that) is that the political institution in Korea is very unstable. There is no party that lasted more than a decade with the same name, except only one party that lasted 12 years with the same name. Every time political party is reorganised, re-established, and destabilised. Even after the democratisation, there is no political stability, therefore women's organisations build coalition with other social movements. For instance for the gender equality law, they build gender coalition with the labor movement organisations. And one of the characteristics of the South Korean social movements is that it is centrally organised. Almost of their headquarters of social movement organisations are located in Seoul and they have well developed networks. They are often grassroots organisations but centrally organised.

Ku: Same in Taiwan I believe, centrally located in Taipei.

Q: Women's movement organisations build gender coalition for causes they support. How about the cases in Taiwan? Several articles say that Taiwanese women's movement activists are relatively well-educated and their grassroots are yet weak. Before the late 1980s, the women's movement was non- or bi-partisan.

Ku: Non- or bi-partisan in principle so that we can influence the policies of different political parties. For instance, we were issue-oriented during the 1980s and wrote women's platforms during national elections. We solicited endorsements from candidates of different political parties. If they adopted our platforms, we offered our support.

Q: Despite the relative weak grassroots bases women's movement organisations could achieve institutional successes based on this kind of cooperation with political parties?

Ku: We were very small in number. In terms of membership, especially in the 70s and 80s and even in the 90s, we were very small. But we had strong political influence on legislation.  Because we had our bases in Taipei, the capital city, we had easier access to the legislature as well as the media. Our activities were reported and exposed to the public even if we were small in number.

Q: You wrote in an article about your own experience as a femocrat. I at first read it in Japanese.

Ku: That article was translated from an English paper.

Q: While reading that article, I was surprised, for South Korea is the member of the UN, which implies that the South Korean government stands under pressure to employ gender mainstreaming adopted by the 1995 Beijing Conference, but in Taiwan there is no objective need to employ gender mainstreaming. Yet Taiwanese feminist groups tried to find a way to employ the gender mainstreaming and to establish it. How could it be possible for Taiwanese women's movements despite this lack of.....

Ku: International pressure?

Q: Yes.

Ku: Gender mainstreaming was one of the slogans used in 1995, a part of the Beijing platform. But it was brought to Taiwan around 2003, many years later. When I was at the city government, gender mainstreaming was not part of the national policy. We didn't talk about gender mainstreaming at that time. So this was a separate development. Gender mainstreaming now is widely implemented at all levels of the government. The central government really instils a lot of resources in this program, gender mainstreaming.

Q: Why? To save face?

Ku: Because we have a very strong women's movement, the government was not under the pressure of the UN, but under the pressure of the women's groups. Taipei city government established Women's Rights Promotion Committee (女権益促進委員会) as early as in 1996 before gender mainstreaming was introduced. It was part of the strategy and also the very unique political situation in Taiwan. In 1994 Chen Shui-Bien, Chair of DPP, was elected the Mayor of Taipei. (Being) influenced by the Western feminist movements, we tried to remain nonpartisan and to influence the gender positions of different political parties. Awakening was for a long time the first and the only feminist organization in Taiwan. When the DPP was picking up momentum, it tried to incorporate as many social movement elements as possible. The development of Awakening and DPP was about the same time. DPP, in many instances, tried to  establish alliance with Awakening. But we resisted the incorporation. On the other side, KMT represented the conservative establishmen, which didn’t pay much attention to the small movement groups. Naturally we formed closer ties with DPP. Even before DPP became a political party, we had closer ties with oppositional groups. When Chen, Shui-Bien was running for the Mayor of Taipei city, some Awakening key members began to change their political path. They thought by working with Chen, if Chen was elected then we would have strong political allies in the government. I believe that was the changing point. They openly supported Chen in his campaign. After Chen was elected, they asked him to establish the Women’s Rights Promotion Committee in the city government. That was the first one in Taiwan, before gender mainstreaming was adopted.. Now, at every level of government we have this establishment, so-called gender-equality machinery.

Q: But this type of Women’s Rights Promotion Committee is not typical type of state machinery. For instance, for women in South Korea there is a kind of state machinery devoted only to women’s issues. But this committee type of state machinery is more broadly based and intersected… For instance, this committee has relatively weak power…

Ku: No, I think it is very special and unique. I haven’t seen any similar establishment in other countries. Did you?

Q: No.

Ku: It’s very unique. The Mayor chairs and his department heads are members of the committee. It is required that members from outside of the government, like women’s groups, must outnumber government delegates, i.e. more than 50% from outside of the government. When the Mayor sits at the meetings, those delegates from the outside of the government try to persuade him to accept their proposals. If the mayor says “Yes,” the department heads are in no position to express any objection. They have to implement those decisions. I think it is a dangerous mode of decision making. But it happened. You know we can’t find any similar establishment.

Q: It is dangerous but sometimes useful?

Ku: It is useful from the perspective of the women's groups. They can make influence directly on the government.

Q: I asked this question for the current South Korean Ministry of the Gender Equality & Family (MOGEF). One of the reason why South Korean women’s movements are frustrated is that they saw the MOGEF as a great achievement of women’s movements. When the government was changed from the liberal to the conservative, it was more hostile to women’s issues. The size, staffs, and especially the size and the area of budgets covering are so significantly reduced that it cannot be called a ministry. The state machinery in South Korea is not a stable organization and dependent on the position of the regime’s political characters or nature. If the regime is conservative and hostile toward women’s issues, the state machinery does not work. I remember in the last part of your article you criticise this kind of organization, Women’s Rights Promotion Committee, there is so called invested interests.

Ku: It also depends on the regimes. All those members are appointed by the government. They can choose whoever to be the members. It also depends on the leadership, on the chair. If he or she is conservative or antifeminist, the proposals can be turned down. But so far such committees   have had strong inference, especially in the central government and the Taipei city government. I also sit on the committee of Xinju, a smaller city. I was sometimes shocked to hear what the representatives had to say at committee meetings. For instance we had policies, directed by the central government, to offer courses on women's issues in community colleges, courses for average citizens. When we looked at the list of courses, they could be very traditional, like parents and children doing things together, ballroom dancing and so on. When I asked why we didn't have courses which would bring changes to women’s lives, for instance, courses like how to fix electric appliances at home, a respected, senior man said those are not courses fit for women, those are man's work. Such ideas were accepted by the committee and the chair. I think the situation are the same in South Korea and Taiwan. We could have a machinery, we could have a structure, but what content could be fit into the structure is highly dependent, on the people implementing policies

Q: But I think you were not the part of this machinery. You are the chair of the training centre of Taipei city.

Ku: When I was in the city government, at that time I was.

Q: Could you explain your experiences as the chair of the training centre. Could you describe more in detail about your works and your experiences during that time? I am interested in how women’s public officials responded?

Ku: I wrote articles about my experiences on writing the regulations governing women's rights in Taipei city.

Q: The Japanese book where your article is included mentions also the process from activists to femocrats and from femocrats to activists. One of the chapter commenting your article describes this kind development. It compares it to Japan because there is no such kind of activists’ tradition. Therefore in Japan it begins with the process, from femocrats to feminist activists. But in Taiwan, the commentator of your article said, there are two phases: you are in the first phase from activist to femocrat; and there is an emerging phase from femocrat to activist.

Ku: I see. When I tried to introduce this piece of legislation, I had to meet a lot of resistance from my colleagues, heads of departments. I discussed (in that article) one experience, a high-level, senior female official, who had attended the weekly executive meeting without saying a word for years. When the draft on the regulations governing women's rights was brought up and severely criticized, she was the only one that came out to support my defense. Ant it was her only time speaking out at the meeting. Later she told me the men’s objections were too irrational. She might not be a feminist, but she might be affected by feminism in the air.

The piece was written about 10 years ago and there have been a lot of changes since then.

Q: For instance?

Ku: Before the turn of the century, women officers were still very cautious, not identifying themselves as feminists. Even that woman who supported me once didn’t openly support feminist issues. After years of working on women's experiences and offering courses relating to women's issues, we saw more women coming out, openly supporting feminism. I think it takes a lot of effort and many years of work.

Q: As you said the Awakening was for a decade the only women’s organisation in Taiwan. But in the ‘90s we see a kind of generational conflicts among Taiwanese feminists, related to issues of prostitution. According to my reading there is a conflict between fuquan (妇劝) and xinquan(性劝). The more mainstream feminists keep distance from the prostitution issue. A professor openly supported…

Ku: He, Chun-li?

Q: Yes. Some would say there were conflicts among feminists relating to political issues and national identity.

Ku: I wrote about that in Chinese.

Q: Can you explain that conflict revolving around this prostitution issue?

Ku: About prostitution?

Q: Prostitution or conflicts among Taiwanese feminists, or what is the lay under this conflict?

Ku: I think it goes back to the 1990s. It is very complicated. Feminists have taken different positions on the issue of prostitution. In the late ‘80s the feminist movement, represented by the Awakening, became prominent in the media when a march against child prostitution was organized. At that time sexual tourism was a major concern of Asian feminists. In Taiwan, many   aboriginal girls were sold into cities as prostitutes. Women's groups including the Awakening held a march in ’87, before the lift of the Martial Law. They criticized the government for not giving enough protection to those girls and formed coalition for the protection of sexually exploited women and girls and advocating abolition of prostitution in Taiwan.

He, on the other hand, was an advocate for sexual liberation. In 1994 when several women’s groups organized a march in Taiwan against sexual harassment, He was in the march. Toward the end of the march, she led the crowd shouting, “I want sexual orgasm, not sexual harassment.” She caught all the lime lights and sexual orgasm overwhelmed the original cause of the march. That led to the split of the movement: one camp for women’s rights and autonomy and the other for sexual liberation.

I suspect there were hidden political agenda behind these two different approaches. When Chen, Shui-Bien was the mayor of Taipei and chaired its Women’s Rights Promotion Committee, the issue of prostitution was brought up. A few delegates strongly urged the mayor to abolish prostitution immediately, and he agreed. However, when the city government tried to enforce this decision, it met unexpected resistance from the prostitutes. The confrontation went on for years. I think it actually jeopardized Chen’s chance of being re-elected for the second term, because the prostitutes followed him everywhere for protest. Chen’s advisors under estimated   the potentials of those under-privileged women by offering more and more compensations. But the problems remain unsolved. The problems went deeper than anticipated.

Q: In 2004, a new law was enacted, that is anti-prostitution law. Compared to Taiwan, there was no conflict among feminists. “Young feminists,” they are poststructuralism-oriented and postcolonialism-oriented young feminists, they and other prostitutes voiced out against the new law, but there was no such kind of conflict (among Taiwanese feminists) around and against that law.

Ku: There are still prostitutes in Korea or?

Q: Officially no, but unofficially yes. There are concerns about illegal or underground practices. There was a small debate: there must be a district in which prostitutes are located and make their work or business legal. It is represented by a group, more liberal-oriented. Almost unanimously South Korean feminists or women’s movements were against such regulation, prostitution should not be legal, even in a limited area. Almost unanimously it (the law) was adopted by political parties. The law is there, but the (illegal) practices are widely spread. Campaigns like against child prostitution and sex tourism was also conducted in Korea. But underground practices are widely spread.

Q: How do you think about democratisation and women’s movements, what was the role of the women’s movements in democratisation, whether democratisation or democracy opened up a new space for women’s movements or not?

Ku: What do you mean by democratisation?

Q: That is the one of the questions I am also interested in what do you understand by the term, democratisation. I have the feeling that South Koreans and Taiwanese understand democratisation and democracy differently. When I met Taiwanese, I have that feeling that they understand democratisation and democratic movement are closely related to political movement. But in Korean case when we talk about democratisation and democratic movements, we usually understand it as social movements.

Ku: To be frank with you I am very confused about it. My friends and I often talk about what  democratisation means to us. Is it just free elections or what is it?

Q: When I met South Korean activists, they unanimously said democratisation and democracy is not a procedural or electoral process.

Ku: It is not. So what is it?

Q: At first in the 1980s women’s movements were a part of a global democratic movement. Then in the late 1980s they tried to keep distance from this movement and they became more and more independent. In the 1980s they focused more on social rights or socio-economic rights. Since the early 1990s they rather focused on political and women’s rights. But after 1997 East Asian Financial Crisis South Korean women’s movements shifted their focus more on socio-economic rights because the rapid increase of precarious jobs, precariats and women constitute the majority of those precarious jobs. Decent jobs are dominated by male workers. After the financial crisis the women’s situation and status became worse than before. Therefore, when they speak of democracy and democratisation they now emphasise social rights: not only for women’s group but for workers democracy is not only political rights but also social and economic rights; without equality there is no democracy; and not only freedom but also equality is important for South Korean social movements. But I have the feeling when Taiwanese friends say what democratic movement is, it is very closely related to DPP. As I already said in South Korea there is political instability.

Ku: Ya, I didn’t realise that. Your political parties even change their name.

Q: Yes, every ten or five years they are divided, merged, destabilised, and remerged….

Ku: Do you have a stable leadership, political leader?

Q: No.

Ku: Even that changes?

Q: In the 1970s there was a very strong authoritarian dictator, the father of the current president, who is also a close friend of Chang, Kai-Sek. In the opposition, there were also charismatic leaders. The opposition parties were not based on networks like dangwai in Taiwan, but rather based on bossism or strong opposition bosses. There were charismatic bosses and opposition parties were based on personal characters of those strong bosses. When those bosses passed away, their parties were scattered, remerged, reorganised constantly.

Ku: You could write about it in your dissertation. It’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Very different from our political thinking. Maybe you can provide some answers for us.

Q: No (laugh)!

Ku: Because partly we are entrapped in the process of democratization, which means mainly political elections and animosity between competitive candidates and political parties.

Q: About my question….

Ku: I think you answered my question better than I answered yours. I am very confused about democracy in Taiwan. I believe the coalition of opposition forces did help to bring down the dominance of the KMT in the past. But what is democracy? With the downfall of the KMT democracy doesn't come to us naturally. We are still suffering from political injustice, dishonesty of politicians and discreet forms of discrimination. So democracy must mean more than what we understand. Do you think democracy still hold for us Asian people?

Q: Laughing. I was a student activist in the 1980s. I was a chair person of a struggle committee against the regime in 1987. There was the June Uprising in South Korea. Almost five millions of people were mobilised and participated in nationwide demonstrations. Key actors of this movement were students. I was a chair person of a struggle committee in Seoul. At that time democracy was the only hope. We were so radical. Regarding women’s issues though we were still conservative but regarding political issues and social transformation we were I think very radical. But after the 1987 the first direct presidential election, that was in December, the incumbent elite was elected and we were so disappointed. After that the radical social movements transform themselves into more liberal-oriented social movements. In the 1980s the dominant global movement in South Korea was minjung movement which is radical and class-oriented movement. In the 1990s shimin(市民) movements, that is citizen movements, they were more individual and midll-class-oriented movements. We have then a variety of specific issue-oriented and topic-oriented social movement organisations. Before that we have a huge global movement. We South Koreans then usually at least my generation or generations in there thirties and forties understand democracy as a more socially oriented way. Because the 1987 constitutional reform was limited to the change the presidential electoral system, from an indirect presidential election to a direct presidential election. It was the almost the only change in the constitution. In this 1987- constitutional-reform other claims proposed by movements were therefore disregarded. There is a social movement tradition regarding democracy and democratisation in a more socially oriented way. That is one side. The other side is the South Korean political parties, compared to Taiwan, are insignificant. I have read an article that compares Taiwanese and South Korean women’s movements and with other East Asian women’s movements before 2000. The article writes that Taiwanese women’s movements’ institutional achievements still meagre compared to the South Korean.

Ku: Because of the Ministry (for Women)?

Q: Not because of the Ministry but because of the strength of the social movements. Social movements build coalition. They always build coalition regardless of issues. “We support your issues and you support ours.” Coalition politics or inter-movements coalition is very typical in South Korea. Women’s movements are also dedicated to this coalition politics and gender coalition for almost legislative issues they raise support from other social movements. But the political institutions are very instable and therefore have no competency to have specific views on the proposals by civic groups. Therefore at the end of the year, the deadline for proposed laws whether they are to be abolished, revised, or enacted. Within last week of the year political parties negotiate the list of the laws and bring them to the parliament, and they bundle all the laws got from other groups, and pass them. Laws gender-related and equality-related, many of these laws were enacted not because of the ability of the political parties but because of their inability.

Ku: Ya, we have the same experience in Taiwan: bundling the bills and passing them as one package without much discussion. I learned from reading papers that, I am sorry to say, your government was not very committed to enforcing many of the laws passed in the parliament. Is that true? I have that impression that some laws were just passed without much….

Q: You don’t need to say “sorry.” In fact many laws were proposed by the government. There are only few lawmakers who are competent to draft, thoroughly review laws.

Ku: But even those laws, proposed by the government, are not enforced?

Q: Right. That is the question that current South Korean women’s movements are facing. One of the chair person I met that is nation widely organised organisation said that “we have laws, we have almost every law that so called Anglo-American or Western European countries have, bunch of laws. But the problem is that they are not enforced.” The other organisation I visited, they are organised primarily for women workers and they are relative active. They told me that since the 1997 economic crisis the socio-economic situation has been worsened. But the situation is worsened not just for women but for general public. Therefore it is difficult for them to problematize the disprivileged situation of women, because if they raise this issue other groups and men say that “we are also hit by this hard time, not just you.” Nevertheless I would say most active women groups and labour movements are now organised by women in precarious jobs or irregular jobs. These jobs usually cover the area of social reproduction like care-taking or cleaning. They were once outside of the industrial wage labour and once only in social reproduction. But they are now in the grey zone between social reproduction and industrial production. Women workers in these areas actively organise themselves against neoliberal economic policy. They always say that democracy is social rights, only for the rich is not democracy. I now have the feeling that I am being interviewed (laughing). Some of South Korean scholars are interested in women’s movements in the Philippine. When I told them the case of Taiwanese women they were surprised. Some of (Taiwanese) women scholars visited South Korea say that South Korean women’s movements are very active, compared to the Taiwanese and more grassroots-oriented than Taiwan and so on. But in fact economic status and political status of Taiwanese women are much better than South Korean women. That is the puzzle. Therefore I want to ask Taiwanese activists like you, you even have experiences not only in one area but in the so called velvet triangle, three areas. You should say something more about Taiwanese women and women’s movements. The puzzle. Of course for instance Anglo-American women’s movements are very active compared to the Northern European women’s movements, but the Northern European women’s status is much better than the Anglo-American women, despite their active voices. I read some pieces saying “Taiwanese exception.” The status of women in Japan and South Korea compared to Taiwan is lower.

Ku: You mean the comparison with your men.

Q: No.

Ku: People in Taiwan always think you have more advanced economic development and better salaries than we do.

Q: I think the average GDP (pro person) of Taiwan is a bit higher, I am not sure. The size of the GDP is much bigger than the Taiwanese because of the size of population.

Ku: Wages in South Korea are much higher than those in Taiwan.

Q: If you contemplate the income, the purchasing power, it is not so high. Compare to men, Japan and South Korea have similar structure, very dualised and dual labour market, male dominance and female subordination. Their wage gaps between male and female workers are relative wider than in Taiwan. Taiwan cases show little differences compared to other Western countries. Even in politics Taiwanese women have always average more than 20 percent of politicians in the legislative body.

Ku: More than 30 percent.

Q: Yes, now more than 30 percent. But decades ago the average of women’s lawmakers in South Korean national assembly was less than 5 percent, 1 to 3 percent. What do you think of this exception achievement of Taiwanese women?

Ku: Ya, why? There are lots of reasons. I would think that the quota for women guaranteed by the 1946 Constitution actually helped, because as early as in the 50s women were elected to political offices because of the protection of the quota.

Q: But already in the 60s women achieved more seats than the quota.

Ku: In the 70s. So we have at least the quota… It has not been passed into law but there are regulations at different levels of government that on every committee one third of the seats should be reserved for either sex. The women's movement in Taiwan has made great achievements in terms of institutionalization. We have protective legislations such as xingbiepingdengjiaoyufa (性别平等教育法, Gender Equality Education Law), Gender Equality Employment Law, Act for the Prevention of Domestic Violence, Act for the Prevention of Sexual Violence and Sexual Harassment Prevention Law. I understand we are the only country in the world to have a separate piece of legislation on sexual harassment.

Q: We have similar law in South Korea, in 1996…. Law against Sexual Violence and against Domestic Violence…. but I am not sure.

Ku: Family Violence Prevention Law. We have also other protective legislations for women. Not just at the national level but also at the local level.

Q: Local politics is very developed in Taiwan compared to South Korea. Not only national politics is instable but also local politics that began in 1995 and before that there was no local election in South Korea. There were local elections in the 1950a but since the 1960s the power was centralised and no further local elections. Therefore grassroots and local autonomy is relative new in South Korea, after the democratisation but not before the democratisation.

Ku: I think we should learn more about Korea. Korean TV programs, sitcoms and songs are very popular in Taiwan. So are Korean actors and actresses. But we know so little about your policies and politics.

Q: One of the crucial differences between Taiwan and Korea is their attitudes towards Japan. Koreans are very hostile to Japan…So let me ask you a very personal question. Why did you join the Ma, Ying-jeou City government? For instance, one of you colleagues (Lee, Yuan-chen), she entered the Chen, Shui-bian’s government.

Ku: She didn’t.

Q: She didn’t?

Ku: Just supported, supported him. She was his adviser on national policy.

Q: She took some jobs or…

Ku: It’s not a job like a….she is his national policy consultant.

Q: Kind of advising group.

Ku: So, what is the question?

Q: You said that many (of women’s movement activists) have a close relationship with DPP.

Ku: In the past, in the dangwai period.

Q: But you entered the Ma, Ying-jeou…

Ku: Oh, why we entered different governments? Strictly speaking, Li didn’t enter Chen’s cabinet, but I became an official member in Ma’s team. In 1994 when Chen ran for the Mayor, Li openly supported him. I entered Ma, Ying-jeou’s government many years later when I was the director of the Awakening Foundation. He tried to recruit me, a symbolic figure of women’s movements. We talked about it among ourselves in the Foundation. It was decided that we should try to bring feminist influences into the government. It was more or less a collective decision. If I didn’t accept the offer, we would suggest another one to fill the post. Our open strategy at the time was to encourage women taking interest in politics, to influence decision-making. We have, for a long time, tried to influence national policies during elections by forming women’s platforms. It is paradoxical that we wanted to make political influence and put more women on decision-making positions, but in the meantime these women were forced to choose sides or parties. I didn’t join the KMT party. I was just invited to work in the government.

Q: One of the professor in the NTU, Fan, Yun, she recently argued that feminist movements in Taiwan became too partisan. What do you think?

Ku: Well, I disagree. It depends on issues. It also depends on political parties. Most presidents, when elected, wanted to be the leader of all constituents. They didn't claim to represent only one party. To show inclusiveness, they tried to recruit people from different political backgrounds. Ma, Ying-jeou, in my opinion, had a tendency of especially trying to recruit people from this position. But the DPP acts differently. For instance, if we examine the names of delegates on Women’s Rights Promotion Committee in Taipei in the central government over the years, we may find the KMT more inclusive and the DPP more selective. But it also depends on issues. I am in the Gender Equality Committee of the central government now and found on many issues we can easily work across party lines. For instance, I am working right now on the issue of legalization of surrogacy.

Q: Surrogate pregnancy?

Ku: Surrogate motherhood. Women’s groups are not divided along party lines.

Q: That is…

Ku: Too small?

Q: I do not mean that. There is a subtlety. I think it is difficult for feminists to have…

Ku: To take sides.

Q: Ya, to have one voice. For instance, the debates on sexual liberation or sexual critiques in the 1990s. I think the surrogate motherhood is….the people from the sexual liberation position may support the surrogate motherhood?

Ku: Ya.

Q: You deal with this issue successfully?

Ku: Ya, so far we have had consensus among women’s groups. Of course there are still other voices from sexual libertarians.

Q: This issue is at least problematized in Taiwan. I think this is not still problematized or thematised in South Korea.

Ku: It is not? Is it legal to hire a surrogate mother in South Korea?

Q: I don’t think so. At least in Taiwan this issue is debated.

Ku: Yes, for more than a decade.

Q: But in Korea that is not an issue. Almost nobody pays attention to this issue.

Ku: So it is an underground practice?

Q: No, it gets no attention. I am sure. We have no statistical data.

Ku: In Taiwan there are reports that one destination to go for surrogacy is South Korea.

Q: I have never heard in Korea that any feminist talks about that issue. .

Q: In the 1980s among feminists about whether the feminists participate in the radical minjung movement. A group, mostly educated in America, I don’t know you know the Ehwa Women’s University…

Ku: Ya, I’ve been there.

Q: Early 1980s they started gender study. The scholar and students around this University opposed to join the mainstream social movements. They built their own organisation and they published, like Taiwanese women’s movements, their own magazine, called Another Culture, directly translated. This group still maintain their own influence. But the mainstream of the South Korean women’s movement is so overwhelming compared to this small group. Recently there are young feminists but they are now in decline because the male dominant public sphere is so strong in South Korea.

Ku: You said that Fan Yun at National Taiwan University said that within the feminists camp there are almost two parties?

Q: I’ve just read her very short abstract of a book(http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415720724/ ), that is not in publication and will be published: environmental and feminist movements became more partisan from non-partisan.

Ku: What does it mean by partisan, being political?

Q: Ya, political. Politically close to….

Ku: Either party.

Q: The article I read says environmental and feminist movements became more partisan. In other article written maybe 2004, a book chapter on democratisation in Asia, she said that the success of women’s movements in Taiwan is because they were non-partisan in the 1980s. I think perhaps she did more research: why the partisan labour movement became less partisan. I am not sure it is already published.